Curse

Tearz1993 · Jul 27, 2008, 10:03 PM // 22:03

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

What you dont seem to realize is warriors defenses are not as effective as the necro's, for protecting the team, like Enfeebling Blood and minions. Except for overpowered SY which a Paragon can use to a much better degree than the warrior himself.

Which definitely helps your case since this thread is discussing pure damage?

Necros are good, but definitely not the best.

Tyla · Jul 27, 2008, 10:03 PM // 22:03

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Originally Posted by Dark Spirit

That's because they don't need to rely on them. In any case, a 2 necro team is of course stronger than a 1 necro team so I dont know what point you are trying to push across.

Don't need to rely on what exactly? I was merely pointing out something that the Tesco advert taught me.

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Vanilla racway fails in many areas, the lack of Splinter is bad which is why I dont use the racway D/N anymore.

I've not used it myself, but if you can explain why it fails. I mean, he clearly stated he did most of his vanquishing with it.

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What you dont seem to realize is warriors defenses are not as effective as the necro's, for protecting the team, like Enfeebling Blood and minions. Except for overpowered SY which a Paragon can use to a much better degree than the warrior himself.

Whether or not the Paragon can keep SY up more isn't the point. The point Warriors still get KD's, consistent DPS and extreme unstrippable partywide defenses.

alundro · Jul 27, 2008, 10:08 PM // 22:08

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Originally Posted by Tyla

I lol'd. SY is 82% mitigation from elemental and physical while Enfeebling is 66% on only physical. Oh, and you don't need much spec in Enfeebling for it to be effective.

PS: SS sucks, Foul Feast > Blind / Weakness and targetswitching / enchant removal > blocks.

You've said nothing that would counter anything I've said.

The difference between 82 and 66 isn't much. And while SY! effects elemental damage, it can only help 7 out of 8 members. Weakness helps everyone despite being physical only. Also, do I really have to explain the other non-mitigation utility that a curse necro brings? What I said still stands: assassins and warriors don't have much of an advantage in utility.

You can counter blind and block with enchant/stance/condition removals, just like you can counter hex removal with cover or aoe hexes(pve only). What I said still stands: hex removal is not as common as blind/block.

What people dont seem to understand is that mobs attack and cast 33-50% faster in hard mode.
That translates to 33-50% more [Spiteful Spirit] DPS.
Every SS becomes a Moebius/Blossom spam for its duration.
With [Arcane Echo], you have -2- of them.
Let's not forget the necro can spam [Necrosis] while SS does its work.

This huge shift in damage potential from normal to hard is why the necro out-DPSes everyone. People can deny it all they want and keep repeating that necromancers are only a support class, but that doesn't make it true.

1 SS necro(make sure to carry Barbs) + 3 meleers > 1 orders necro + 3 meleers > 4 meleers with outside splinter support > 4 SS necros > 1 SS necro > 1 melee with outside splinter support

Tyla · Jul 27, 2008, 10:16 PM // 22:16

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Originally Posted by alundro

You've said nothing that would counter anything I've said.

The difference between 82 and 66 isn't much. And while SY! effects elemental damage, it can only help 7 out of 8 members. Weakness helps everyone despite being physical only. Also, do I really have to explain the other non-mitigation utility that a curse necro brings? What I said still stands: assassins and warriors don't have much of an advantage in utility.

I lol'd. A: If it effects elemental damage too, it's obviously superior, not to mention it's a nice quick addition to your bar if you can pump it up fast.

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You can counter blind and block with enchant/stance/condition removals, just like you can counter hex removal with cover or aoe hexes(pve only). What I said still stands: hex removal is not as common as blind/block.

Wait, I'm PuGging with monsters?

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What people dont seem to understand is that mobs attack and cast 33-50% faster in hard mode.

It's 33% faster, and also common knowledge. I've only 30 areas to vanquish for a complete HM completion in Tyria, Elona and Cantha. I should know.

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That translates to 33-50% more [Spiteful Spirit] DPS.
Every SS becomes a Moebius/Blossom spam for its duration.
With [Arcane Echo], you have -2- of them.
Let's not forget the necro can spam [Necrosis] while SS does its work.

Yes. Why do that though when you can shut everything down with an ES Warrior though, or buff physicals to insanity? SS isn't even a good skill.

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This huge shift in damage potential from normal to hard is why the necro out-DPSes everyone. People can deny it all they want and keep repeating that necromancers are only a support class, but that doesn't make it true.

Necros are a support class, like all other midliners. Just because they can deal a moderate amount of damage doesn't state otherwise.

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1 SS necro(make sure to carry Barbs) + 3 meleers > 1 orders necro + 3 meleers > 4 meleers with outside splinter support > 4 SS necros > 1 SS necro > 1 melee with outside splinter support

I usually run Earth Shaker on my Warrior. SS + Earth Shaker = wut?

Tearz1993 · Jul 27, 2008, 10:19 PM // 22:19

SY can't be interrupted. Enfeebling Blood can.

mrmango · Jul 27, 2008, 10:42 PM // 22:42

SS isn't bad, it's just not overpowered. In PVE it's not bad. >.>

I still agree with Tyla, of course.

Bobby2 · Jul 27, 2008, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by alundro

stuff about SS

[[Spiteful Spirit] depends on your opponent being stupid, which is why it rawks PvE. To say that it matches Blossom DPS just tells me you haven't played Assassin much though.

Following this, I'd rather have DPS sources that can be buffed (eg physical

) especially in HM.

The thing about SS (and passive DPS skills like it) is that it encourages stupid play. Cast it, then stay alive long enough for the monster to die from brain explosion. Much better to actively deal focused damage... helluva lot faster. You can vanquish with anything, as already stated, but speed = win.

alundro · Jul 28, 2008, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

I lol'd. A: If it effects elemental damage too, it's obviously superior, not to mention it's a nice quick addition to your bar if you can pump it up fast.

Oh, i see what the problem is. When you read, "assassins and warriors don't have much of an advantage in utility." you processed it as "enfeebling blood > SY!".

Get back to me when you fix your reading comprehension.

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Wait, I'm PuGging with monsters?

Get back to me when you fix your reading comprehension.

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It's 33% faster, and also common knowledge. I've only 30 areas to vanquish for a complete HM completion in Tyria, Elona and Cantha. I should know.

I was expecting you to follow this up with something. Not take something out of context and then provide worthless "zOMG! EVERYONE KNOWS THAT LOL LOL LOL" commentary.

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Yes. Why do that though when you can shut everything down with an ES Warrior though, or buff physicals to insanity? SS isn't even a good skill.

A hammer warrior? In a thread about the best damage in hard mode? Seriously? Even a Cry of Pain mesmer pushes out more DPS than a buffed out warrior that doesn't have triple chop... or even hundred blades.

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Necros are a support class, like all other midliners. Just because they can deal a moderate amount of damage doesn't state otherwise.

Right, necros are a support class, like all other midliners.... in PvP. The common consensus on class roles are mainly made from the perspective of PvP. You obviously fail to understand that PvP does not equal PvE.

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I usually run Earth Shaker on my Warrior. SS + Earth Shaker = wut?

A hammer warrior? In a thread about the best damage in hard mode? Seriously? Even a Cry of Pain mesmer pushes out more DPS than a buffed out warrior that doesn't have triple chop... or even hundred blades.

Atleast try and argue using dervishes, paragons, rangers, or even monks as an example. Classes that I've never thoroughly played in hard mode. Trying to argue with me using warriors or assassins as an example is hilarious. Its obvious you've never tried an SS/arcane echo necro.

__________________________________________________ _____________

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

[[Spiteful Spirit] depends on your opponent being stupid, which is why it rawks PvE. To say that it matches Blossom DPS just tells me you haven't played Assassin much though.

Following this, I'd rather have DPS sources that can be buffed (eg physical

) especially in HM.

The thing about SS (and passive DPS skills like it) is that it encourages stupid play. Cast it, then stay alive long enough for the monster to die from brain explosion. Much better to actively deal focused damage... helluva lot faster. You can vanquish with anything, as already stated, but speed = win.

Yes, with splinter, orders, and strength of honor, blossom DPS goes through the roof. No, SS can't match a tricked out blossom spam in hard mode.

...but -2- Spiteful Spirits can match it. And like I said earlier, while SS/arcane echo does its thing, the necro will be spamming necrosis for even more damage. You can do focus damage with necrosis if you target a mob with SS on it, or split damage and target something else if you want to let SS run its full course. You can even echo it against bosses when you don't need 2x SS.

DarkSpirit · Jul 28, 2008, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

When did I say I'm not a troll? Sure I am. I know I am. But please, do not lie, you did fight with someone few weeks ago about elementalist damage > splinter weapon or necro curses. I still remember my rofls.

No I didn't, unless you took it out of context to refer to specific team builds as a whole.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tearz1993

Which definitely helps your case since this thread is discussing pure damage?

Necros are good, but definitely not the best.

Although damage is important, staying alive is also important. What is the point of equipping all damages if you cant keep your team alive?

Tyla · Jul 28, 2008, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alundro

Oh, i see what the problem is. When you read, "assassins and warriors don't have much of an advantage in utility." you processed it as "enfeebling blood > SY!".

Get back to me when you fix your reading comprehension.

Oh sorry. I guess you missed out the blindingly obvious skill also known as Brawling Headbutt, which is a champion on melee. I already mentioned such things.

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Get back to me when you fix your reading comprehension.

Okay, so I'm not going to bring the blindingly obvious counters I already mentioned in this thread in the first place? Monsters aren't organised. Players are. If we're discussing counters I guess I can say MIGRAINE ANTICASTER LOLOLOL and supposedly have my own point.

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I was expecting you to follow this up with something. Not take something out of context and then provide worthless "zOMG! EVERYONE KNOWS THAT LOL LOL LOL" commentary.

It's worthless because your point is moot. Once again, another blindingly obvious thing that people should know if they go into Hard Mode!

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A hammer warrior? In a thread about the best damage in hard mode? Seriously? Even a Cry of Pain mesmer pushes out more DPS than a buffed out warrior that doesn't have triple chop... or even hundred blades.

[whirlwind attack][crude swing]

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Right, necros are a support class, like all other midliners.... in PvP. The common consensus on class roles are mainly made from the perspective of PvP. You obviously fail to understand that PvP does not equal PvE.

*Yawn*

Not this shit again. Just because midliners support in PvP doesn't mean they don't apply this role best in PvE also. I guess in PvE all Warriors should be tanks too?

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Atleast try and argue using dervishes, paragons, rangers, or even monks as an example. Classes that I've never thoroughly played in hard mode. Trying to argue with me using warriors or assassins as an example is hilarious. Its obvious you've never tried an SS/arcane echo necro.

Once again, I have already mentioned this in several of my posts.

As for SS, you do understand slapping Mark of Pain on a target will deal far more DPS depending on how many physical attacks hit it, right? The AP MoP Nuker is far more powerful than an SS for the simple reason it buffs up melee and can deal consistent AoE damage. Supporting your melee goes far beyond it. Splinter Weapon will also make this more powerful as it's physical damage, and on a Dervish you'll only be seeing things blow up. Infact, a Dervish autoattacking with Splinter Weapon at even 10 spec and Chilling Victory would deal more damage, aswell as all the other buffs you can add to it.

DarkSpirit · Jul 28, 2008, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

As for SS, you do understand slapping Mark of Pain on a target will deal far more DPS depending on how many physical attacks hit it, right? The AP MoP Nuker is far more powerful than an SS for the simple reason it buffs up melee and can deal consistent AoE damage.

Omg, Tyla's using my point.

In any case, MoP+10 fiends is still faster than MoP+1 warrior. MoP is a necro skill not a warrior skill though.

Tearz1993 · Jul 28, 2008, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Although damage is important, staying alive is also important. What is the point of equipping all damages if you cant keep your team alive?

Yeah I understand that, but the OP was looking for the best damage, and how well a profession can support his team probably wasn't what he was looking for.

If he posted on this thread instead of letting it get derailed he might get a better answer...

Tyla · Jul 28, 2008, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Omg, Tyla's using my point.

In any case, MoP+10 fiends is still faster than MoP+1 warrior.

Dervish with Splinter Weapon will trigger it twice if it hits the MoP'd target with both Splinter and the scythe. That makes it ~80 damage added onto AoE. Also attacking at roughly 1.2 seconds with Heart of Fury up.

Warrior using Whirlwind Attack buffed by Splinter Weapon, also attacking every ~1 second will deal the same.

DarkSpirit · Jul 28, 2008, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tearz1993

Yeah I understand that, but the OP was looking for the best damage, and how well a profession can support his team probably wasn't what he was looking for.

If he posted on this thread instead of letting it get derailed he might get a better answer...

Ok, I made an assumption that the OP is thinking of a build that is effective meaning staying alive while dealing great damage, even though he didnt specifically mention the "staying alive" part. I thought that was implicit.

Really, the more you keep your team alive, the better damage you can get than just from yourself anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Dervish with Splinter Weapon will trigger it twice if it hits the MoP'd target with both Splinter and the scythe. That makes it ~80 damage added onto AoE. Also attacking at roughly 1.2 seconds with Heart of Fury up.

Warrior using Whirlwind Attack buffed by Splinter Weapon, also attacking every ~1 second will deal the same.

Last I remember, Splinter is physical damage, not armor ignoring but of course it helps. And Splinter would trigger MoP but fiends targeting is usually sufficient for me anyway. Having some melee to hold up and bunch up the group from fleeing would also help.

MoP especially works well against Rit or Monk monsters because casters tend to bunch up in PvE and these would heal themselves, keeping themselves alive while monsters around them are dying from MoP triggering off them. When monsters around them have all died from MoP, cast Barbs and finish them off. Heroes dont know how to work this correctly.

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I've not used it myself, but if you can explain why it fails. I mean, he clearly stated he did most of his vanquishing with it.

A note about Racway. It has problems against the Aegis casting Flameshielder charrs and raptors in HM. Even if you bring anti-block, single target damage is only so effective without Splinter compared to the AoE attacks from Flameshielders, and Faintheartedness + Suffering from charr hexers. You have to attack the Dominators (mesmer charrs) first because they bring Resurrection Chant, but their monks spike heal very well. This is when it can get troublesome for single target damage dealers.

Attack speed debuff hexes like Faintheartedness and Shadow of Fear do affect adrenaline gain for SY too.

Da Rk Bl Ad E · Jul 28, 2008, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Alundro, are you high? Your ranting on about nonsense :P I mean...Triple chop , Hundred blades or ES Hmm would i rather have Ok'ish AoE damage or an AoE attack that can potentially knock-lock mobs, Hard choice? I think not.

As Tyla said [whirlwind attack] + [crude swing] Is plenty of AoE damage, Add In [splinter weapon]+[mark of pain] and your set to go. Why waste an Elite spot on triple chop or hundred blades when you can have plenty of aoe and [earth shaker]

SS is inferior to buffed up physicals 'Nuff Said.

Bobby2 · Jul 28, 2008, 01:49 AM // 01:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by alundro

Yes, with splinter, orders, and strength of honor, blossom DPS goes through the roof. No, SS can't match a tricked out blossom spam in hard mode.

...but -2- Spiteful Spirits can match it.

1 Blossom spammer would give SS and its echoed copy a run for their money... before adding buffs.

EDIT: yes, I meant in HM.

Windf0rce · Jul 28, 2008, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

1 Blossom spammer would give SS and its echoed copy a run for their money... before adding buffs.

EDIT: yes, I meant in HM.

That's what I thought when I was considering which character I would make my main and I ruled the Necro out pretty early.

When running Sabway, for example, setting Livia as the SS/Barbs is effective enough. On the other hand, I can guess an Assassin hero certainly wouldn't be able to spam Moebius/Death Blossom as well as I do, switch targets, use Golden Fox/Wild Strike effectively on stance blockers, etc, and much less survive Hard Mode with 70 Armor, etc. Even if the hero managed all that, he/she wouldn't have access to Critical Agility which I think is key for the spam (33% IAS is huge!).

I noticed Weapon Spells are extremely strong on an Assassins' hands, too. I have Warmongers on Livia and Splinter on Olias. Splinter adds a lot to AoE damage, and Warmongers simply doesn't let a Monk cast any spell at all, whenever I see a boss I micro it, and kill.

Overall I'm pretty happy with the sin for now, and she outdamages my Ele HEAVILY (besides having the advantage to shutdown while attacking). Fun to play and powerful - played with my friend this weekend and had a few successful HM missions and vanquishes already.

Whenever I get bored I'll try some Warrior/Derv/Para build on the sin. She seems pretty versatile.

DarkSpirit · Jul 28, 2008, 04:21 AM // 04:21

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Originally Posted by Windf0rce

When running Sabway, for example, setting Livia as the SS/Barbs is effective enough. On the other hand, I can guess an Assassin hero certainly wouldn't be able to spam Moebius/Death Blossom as well as I do, switch targets, use Golden Fox/Wild Strike effectively on stance blockers, etc, and much less survive Hard Mode with 70 Armor, etc. Even if the hero managed all that, he/she wouldn't have access to Critical Agility which I think is key for the spam (33% IAS is huge!).

That is not a fair comparison. The fact that heroes run necros better than assassins doesn't mean assassins are more useful to the team than necros. If necros are not useful, you wouldn't be running sabway.

Bobby2 · Jul 28, 2008, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Listen, necro fanboi, OP never stated Necros weren't useful. Argue with the right people pl0x.

Windf0rce, see you on the Sin forum

RavagerOfDreams · Jul 28, 2008, 05:36 AM // 05:36

[great dwarf weapon] [order of pain] [mark of pain] [barbs] on a melee = win

SS's DPS is bad compared to a buffed physical so the point is don't bring a SS bring assassins promise so that your melee can blow shit up faster. I've seen that MoP nuker build at work and it can take out mobs ridiculously fast if placed on the right targets. Now that being said Dark 10 minions isn't as effective as a warrior simply because the warrior can knocklock or spam SY!. Not only that but there is usually more then one physical on a PvE team (paragon, dervish, sin, other warrior) and they usually have IAS's which means they attack much faster then minions ever could. This makes it smarter to bring physicals.

However if you are out on your lonesome and only have h/h access why not just bring physicals and minions

twice the fun.

and yea see you on the sin forums winf0rce. ....watch out for bobby he bites....